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Comments on Effectiveness of input-only learning

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Effectiveness of input-only learning

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While learning a language, there are a surprising (to me at least) number of people who say that you should never output until fluent - that is, as long as you get enough input, you will eventually become able to output fluently. Basically, learning the way children acquire their first language. They do give some support as well, for instance that you would internalize errors by outputting while unaware.

However, this still seems entirely backwards to the idea that practice makes perfect and gaining a skill requires actively using it. Avoiding internalizing errors is what you get feedback for, and there are entire sites (e.g. HiNative) dedicated to getting this feedback. Secondarily, given that I have heard (citation needed) that adults learn differently from children, I'm not sure how much the comparison with first language acquisition actually holds.

That's why my question is: Is this actually an effective way to learn a language?

I'm sure this is probably a well-studied topic in research, but I'm not an academic and have no idea what Krashen's Input Hypothesis or any other of the terms thrown around are. I'm more curious as a layman learning a new language.

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Krashen's teachings (5 comments)
Krashen's teachings
Jirka Hanika‭ wrote over 1 year ago

Krashen certainly never posited anything as radical as a recommendation not to produce.

He believes that you can't speed up (or even reorder) language learning by trying to consciously learn to produce on a level that's TOO FAR AHEAD of what you have already subconsciously acquired through previous language exposure (including, especially, enough input, but also enough production practice). He says that you'd just waste some of your time by trying that and that the brain wouldn't pick up the attempted new skills.

Special case: When learning a language without an instructor, it can initially be tricky to get the pronunciation right, and persistent practice of your own, utterly unintelligible pronunciation, can even turn into a fatal setback for successful production ever after. To prevent this, you need to listen (not just read) a lot as you go. But Krashen says that it applies to every aspect of language learning.

Krashen isn't universally accepted, though.

Moshi‭ wrote over 1 year ago

Interesting - that's still learning the stuff subconsciously before outputting though, right?

Jirka Hanika‭ wrote over 1 year ago

The example I gave was mine, not necessarily Krashen's.

Krashen distinguishes conscious "learning" and subconscious "acquisition". Both are important. You need a certain level of acquisition before you can successfully proceed to a certain step of learning. But both proceed in a lockstep. There's an optimal proportion between the two to be found; you proceed fastest when you find the right balance between learning and acquisition, says Krashen.

I'm no expert on Krashen so I can't expand this remark into a comprehensive answer.

Krashen's input hypothesis (you can look it up) is purely about acquisition, it doesn't directly postulate anything about learning, so it would be a logical mistake to read it as a prohibition on conscious learning or of production until fluent. But Krashen has also other postulates (e.g., monitor hypothesis) that are about conscious learning and thus way more actionable for self-learners.

Moshi‭ wrote over 1 year ago · edited over 1 year ago

I see, thanks for the insight (maybe you could write a partial answer ;)

I'll take a deeper look into it, though from what you mention, I guess people are just hyperfocusing on one aspect and making it their entire method like it's the One Trick Needed to Succeed™️. It happens.

Jirka Hanika‭ wrote over 1 year ago

Yes, that's exactly what I meant.